Marnie, speak! Good girl.

Wow! Isn't it an awful lot of responsibility/pressure to put on the shoulders of a child to make YOU a better person?

That argument is ridiculous on many levels - especially since if you can't find it within yourself to develop into a better person, it seems unfair (and a bit lazy, imho) to expect a baby to do it for you?

Love the blog Marnie - the patterns/yarn/fiber are fab and the puppies are too cute for words!!

You've addressed this so eloquently that it's hard to comment, but I wanted to give you a virtual pat on the back. It's amazing to me that all of the child-less women I'm close to have at least one person trying to persuade them to have children. I have a friend who is unable to have children who has been treated differently by people around her since she found out. It's complete nonsense; we have so much to offer aside from our child-bearing capabilities.

I'm Grandma to lots of kids, not only my own grandchildren. I love it. I love and care for all 3 of my children, all 6 1/9 of them!
BUT here's my point:
Erase SHOULD and OUGHT from your vocabulary when you speak of choices for OTHERS!
It's the variety that makes life worthwhile! Variety in EVERYTHING!
I have NO wish that everybody be like me!

I didn't have children. But, as you well know, if I like a child it's the same as if it were MY child. You and Matt are mine. Nothing says we can't share with the "real" mamma, all the children in the world we want, or all the ones who need us.

Having a baby only lasts about 5 years. Having a child only lasts about 15 more.

We're living well into our 80s these days, and most of these years are spent childless. Children are all small almost-adults - and we don't pick our adult friends genetically.

As usual, Marnie, you've got a good head and a generous heart. It is good of you to put both in print for us.

Love, jdab

I didn't have children. But, as you well know, if I like a child it's the same as if it were MY child. You and Matt are mine. Nothing says we can't share with the "real" mamma, all the children in the world we want, or all the ones who need us.

Having a baby only lasts about 5 years. Having a child only lasts about 15 more.

We're living well into our 80s these days, and most of these years are spent childless. Children are all small almost-adults - and we don't pick our adult friends genetically.

As usual, Marnie, you've got a good head and a generous heart. It is good of you to put both in print for us.

Love, jdab

As a mom of 1, let me say amen to your last point about many kids being too spoiled and catered-to today.

Make your own choices, Marnie, and don't let anyone call you selfish for doing so.

I have two beautiful kids, but I completely agree with your way of thinking. I think all parents wonder what their life would have been like if they had waited or just hadn't had kids. I seriously envy my childless friends because they are more free to pursue the things that they want to do. Also after I had kids I became a nervous wreck. YOu don't have to just worry for yourself anymore..... now there is this little life that you're striving to see make it to adulthood. It's maddening at times. All the parents I know of are stressed, yell a lot and get little sleep.Stay childless if that's what you want because I also just heard that they're making women register in order to become pregnant in one country (I think it was India) and they have a one child rule in China. There's a reason for that...... overpopulation. And when the earth gets overpopulated it has a tendency to fight back (ie natural disasters and germ warfare). All this overpopulation puts more of a strain on the environment so the whole having kids is better for the environment is complete crapola.

Thank you for sharing this story. I lean (a lot) towards your points, but it was also interesting to see what others were discussing in the NPR program.

You are so right! And this is coming from a woman with 1 child and who is pregnant. Being a parent isn't for everybody and I didn't think it was for me (until I had my daughter). It is YOUR CHOICE!!! I would never belittle someone for choosing not to have children or accuse them of being selfish. I once read a story of a woman who wanted to have a child so badly that she didn't care what the fertility treatments would do to her offspring, she just wanted a baby....now THAT is selfish!
Thank you for this posting. I hope it opens up some eyes:)

I whole heartedly agree! Good points!

I have wonderful children in my life that are not my own, and I like it that way. I have no desire for children of my own, but animals, yes. My brother also has no desire for children and I think our lives are rich in their own way for that. Excellent point about the cultural mentality and role children are pushed into.

I value my choice and my life, (and my sleep and my toys) koodos to you!

Right on sister! I'm with you - I don't want children either. Not having heard the BBC interview, this argument seems totally absurd. Are they kidding? I could (as I am sure you could too) make a similar list of why having children is totally selfish. To have child-bearing as a default step in the (socially-expected) natural course of life is careless. I've put a lot of thought into my decision not to have any children, and I hope that mothers-to-be will put just as much thought and introspection into exploring the reasons they want to have children.

Thanks for making us all put on our thinking caps! :)

Right on sister! I'm with you - I don't want children either. Not having heard the BBC interview, this argument seems totally absurd. Are they kidding? I could (as I am sure you could too) make a similar list of why having children is totally selfish. To have child-bearing as a default step in the (socially-expected) natural course of life is careless. I've put a lot of thought into my decision not to have any children, and I hope that mothers-to-be will put just as much thought and introspection into exploring the reasons they want to have children.

Thanks for making us all put on our thinking caps! :)

For the last three days, every radio, TV and internet news outlet has reported on the "Oprah's Tragic Loss," which was the accidental death of one of her dogs. Why is it news for Oprah, but I am treated like some kind of nut for loving my dogs?

I find it interesting that the same people who criticize us for not being married or having human children (I also have two canines who are my children) are the same people who worship Oprah for everything she does.

Here she is America....an UNMARRIED woman who is also human CHILDLESS who loves her dogs...........OPRAH FREAKIN WINFREY!

Society needs to get over the notion that just because you CAN reproduce doesn't mean that you SHOULD.

Woof!
Terry

"...if all of the people who deep down knew that they didn't want kids were careful not to have any I think fewer children would be mistreated."

Amen.
Me? I've NEVER...and I really mean NEVER...have had the will, inclination or desire to have and/or raise a child.
I didn't even play with "baby" dolls. From the beginning I played with Barbies, because Barbie could "dress herself", "feed herself" and "go where she wanted to go".
I've never understood how someone could let themselves be talked into and/or pressured into having children when they know deep down in their hearts that this is not their own desire.
I think it's selfish for parents to browbeat their children into having children so they can have grandchildren. What's THAT all about?!

Thank you so much for your eloquently stated opinions! As a married couple who do not want kids, we're still surprised by all the different reactions we get. More often than not, the follow-up remark is that patronizing statement, "you're young; maybe you'll change your mind". I want to make hand-outs of your post and make them read it!

The advice columnist for the Washington Post, Carolyn Hax has said something like the following:

"sometimes the most UN-selfish thing two people can do is NOT have children."

I think she is sooooo spot on with this. It's totally a personal choice, and I thank people like you for highlighting this stereotype that for some reason unbeknown to me still exists in our society.

ps. love the designs too!

I am on your side, Marnie. I have known women who were raised to dedicate their life for her family, but at the same time forget what's important for them. I was raised my parents who believe that we need to fulfil our goal and then become a good provider. The main thing is be happy with ourself first, and that can be very different from one person to the other.

Marnie, thank you for writing this post. I think women who make a public declaration of their intentions, not to have children, are very brave because we can put up with so much stick from others who think they knot better. I like you aman adult educated woman who has known all her life that she does not want to reproduce. Often, when I have stated this to people, it is dismissed with a swift "Well, there is still time to change your mind....". I am completely with you on this post, and feel compelled to make a public statement about not wanting offspring on my own blog.
Thank you.

I'm a little late to this entry, but I have to shout out an AMEN to you. I remember being a little girl and knowing that not only did I not want babies, I also didn't want to be married. I didn't have many friends when I was young, and those I did have tended to be a little precocious, like myself. Reading your entry was like reading something I might write myself. Right down to the pets, the feeling loving and kind, and the little kings and queens. I also think I would be very strict, even though my own upbringing was anything but.

This does not mean I don't lavish love and attention on my nephews, or (as you said), I might not want children someday after all. Even though I'm in my thirties, I'm not so worried about my biological clock, because ever since I was a little girl I always said if I DID have children, I would adopt an older child.

Sorry to go on and on... it's just so nice to find someone who shares the same opinions on this as I have.

Listen, at the risk of sounding like a bad mom here, It is the very HARDEST thing I've ever done. Of course I could never go back, my kiddos are one of the best things I've ever done. But, I tell you this in all honesty...If I had known what I was going to be in for, I'm pretty sure I wouldn't have done it.

Before kids, we had it good and life was easy. Hell YES, being selfish is part of not having kids. Making that choice is a form of self-preservation in my opinion! Those arguments that the people had on the show you were listening to are all just ignorant, and tick my off just a wee bit. Can you tell?

For awhile there, I felt like I lost myself. It was ALL kids ALL the time. They are in school now, so I have my days back.

You may know the "woman" who has the perfect kids? Her babies never spit up, her tweens never sass, her teenagers follow all the rules, and are going to Harvard? She is lying, lying, lying. Her kids are HARD, just like the rest of ours, she is in denial about how dang HARD it is to raise those kids, and she probably wished she didn't have any as well. (By the way, you can tell I know this "woman" well, and several variations on the theme, but boy, do I know her well...)

With all that being said, I wouldn't trade my motherhood for anything now that I've done it, and I love my kids fierce. I would have missed out on so much, like the 2AM feedings, digging in the potted tree, pouring baby powder in all the drawers with all the clothes and then mixing it with water, trips to the emergency room for stitches. I could do without that.... But, I would have missed out on the sloppy kisses, little notes of love everywhere, teaching them to ski and to horseback ride. I'm glad I have that opportunity.

But making the choice to have kids, or to have not, is equally noble. For all the reasons you listed and more. For all the reasons I listed, and more.

Wow, I really got going on this one. Sorry about that!

And, that is ALL she wrote...Heh...

Everything I was raring to say has already been said.
-having kids is usally selfish
-making more hiuman consumers is worse for the environment than having no kids
-people should do whatever they want
etc.

Whew!

While I think at some point I want kids, I completely agree with you. I think the decision to have children or not is a completely personal choice, and there's no universal right or wrong answer. It's really more what's right for you - and that's not selfish. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. I've always known I wanted to pursue a career and go through school. I figured at some point I'd get married and have kids, but it wouldn't be until the right time.

I had a friend ask me the other day "how my ovaries were doing" while we were discussing relationships and I was so irritated. "You're getting older, aren't you ready to have kids?" The idea that having kids was my role in life and why I'm with my current boyfriend was just ridiculous.

Thanks for your post - I think it makes a really good point that everyone has a choice, and they're not wrong :)

hiya marnie, i love that you went out on that limb and let us know a little about your decision. i know you know i am a mom now, but it was not a decision that came lightly. there was a point when i really did not know...and i love your response to all the points on childing/selfish. even now i kinda' feel like having kids is the most selfish decision because you decide so many things that shape their young lives and those formative years are hard to change if they go wrong. i am glad we were really ready and lived our lives very fully before, because this part of parenthood is really like one long contraction of your life. it is wonderful but i do not think it is wrong to admit it is also very very hard. kudos to you for knowing your own mind and standing strong in it. and it sure does not seem to have stopped you from a cute kiddie design (oh, someday i will make the dragon hoodie. i just have to.) smiles.

As a woman, who is asked frequently about my child-bearing plans I really appreciate your thoughtful post. My position on procreation (for myself) is that if it happens naturally I am all for it. If it doesn't happen, I will be a perfectly happy childless person.

The arguments from the radio show are ridiculous! People without children are harder on the environment? What about those minivans and mega-SUVs that families buy justifying their purchases with "you can't transport children in a sedan." Hello? We had a two door Chevy something or another when I was a kid and did just fine. And the, "it's selfish to choose your job over a child" line? What about women who have to work even if they have children?

I think that it is selfish and self-serving to make generalizations about people who don't have or want to have children.

Thanks for your post, Marnie.

Well this is coming from someone who very much wants to have children and I have always viewed having children as one of the great things *I* personally can do with my life.

I have to say I agree with everything you said! So many people think just because THEY want something or THINK someting, everyone else should WANT or THINK the same way! I hate that. I think it's great you know yourself so well and I wish more people that HAD kids anylized themselves and their life and knew themselves just as well about WHY they had kids.

My goal is to bring some mentally stable, not spoiled kids into this world who will help make it a better place. By better place I just mean being good people, the more good people we have the more the good can outnumber the bad. Might sound odd for a reason but it's one of my core reasons amungst many others I won't bother typing lol!

Anyway, I agree with everything you said and think it was all very well written!

I guess it's a dangerous thing, but, I just don't like kids and have never intended on having any, find myself cringing at check out lines and on air planes when I hear their awefulless on display in fact; am so glad to be E, me and Ropi makes 3! After marrying my man I heard no end of "the question" until folks realized that my lil' doggy is plenty enough. I'm also one of the last hold-outs of my clan sans child....I don't think there's any worry about the human race disapearing.
I must also comment on NPR in general: I'm an NPR addict living in Iceland (were the reproductive rate is astronomical), and from this great distance of miles and heart I am floored, flabegasted and frustrated by a lot of what I hear people say.....how many of these people, these fountains of bullshit, the "in charge experts" of our times are totaly unaware of what is actually taking place on this earth? And how can we, the users of our own minds take back our common destiny?

I couldn't have said it better myself! There are plenty of unqualified people having children that shouldn't be, so the human race isn't in any danger of becoming extinct if a few smart people decide not to have children. I have one 21 year old daughter whom I love dearly, I wouldn't change that for anything, but I would certainly not have more. I think people are selfish for having children merely to feed their egos.

I have two - twins. Love them. Love being a mom however I think it's great that women have choices. To have or not have a family. It wasn't always so. Families come in all shapes and sizes. We don't necessarily have to give birth to them.

I think you hit the nail on the head. I have four cats and a husband and currently no urge at all to have human kids. We haven't decided yet and we're not going to be blackmailed into a decision either way!

I couldn't agree with you more! In fact, you could copy and paste the exact text of your argument (even the bit about not sure if I'd be a great mum and family/personal history of mental illness) into my blog and pass it off as mine. (Not that I'd do it.)

I'd also like to add to my argument though that it's unlikely that I would be able to conceive even if I wanted to. I have enough anxiety and emotional stress in my life without bringing in what I imagine would be the unbearably difficult and crushing feeling of finding out you can't have kids at all, or the IVF didn't work, or whatever...(this is if we assume I changed my mind and decided I desperately did want kids...otherwise finding out I can't have them isn't really here or there...)

Anyway, go you. Go us! It's a perfectly valid choice in life. I hate it when people make me feel like it's not.

My 11 year old sister asked me yesterday if I was going to have kids. I told her I didn't really think I wanted them and I wouldn't make a good mum anyway (to keep the explanation short). She told me that I'd already been like a mum to her for her entire life and that she thought I would be great at it. That's another thing...I kind of feel like I was a mum to my sister in some ways. Our real mum was sort of checked out emotionally when my little sister was born/growing up and I was the oldest. I did everything for her. She really feels...mine in a lot of ways. I know it's not the same, but I had a rough time of it playing mom to my sister starting from the age of 12. I never wanted kids before that, didn't dream of having them when I grew up...and that kind of sealed the deal for me. Helping to bring up my sis was enough for me.

(Plus my cat is too needy to allow my attention to be diverted to another small, needy creature.)

Statistically speaking, the higher a woman's level of education, the less likely she is to reproduce. As both someone who is taking some time off before grad school (Molecular Biology) and the mother of 2 toddlers, I have repeadtedly heard either "How can you possibly do both, I'm amazed" -OR-"You can't possibly give carrer AND children the best you have to offer"

It appears that no matter what choice we make as women, there will be someone out there to tell us we are doing it wrong, simply because it was not the way they chose to do it.

While I'm not old enough to quote "logan's Run" How about "live and let live"...

Marnie, thank you for the very thoughtful post. When I was in my early 20's I was shocked when my then boyfriend told me he never wanted children. And I admit, my first thought was "but isn't that selfish, what are you going to do with your life?". Now that I'm older and grown up (some) I believe my reaction was due to the thought that "everyone" got married, had kids, etc. That's just what you did. Add that to the fact that he was (and I'm sure still is) a very selfish person. Now before I get stoned for saying this, I don't base my assesment on his not wanting to have children, I base it on everything else about his behavior and personality. Now I know that different choices work for different people and only they know what will make them happy.

Now that I am older and married, hubby and I are very much on the fence about our having children. Either of us could be swayed very easily if the other really wanted to go one way or the other. And we have a very intense, drawn out conversations about it every year. Right now I am planning a visit to the doctor to see where my fertility lies, to see if we have any more time to decide, or if we have to decide now, or if my age has already decided for us. But that's a decision only we can make. Many of our friends don't understand, but have for the most part stopped asking us. Hubby was getting so annoyed for a while he starting telling people we could only have puppies.

One person did pay us a lovely compliment, while I was at yet another baby shower. She said something along the lines of "you two are such good friends, you don't need a baby, like some people do, to complete your family" That always makes me smile.

AMEN!

I have two children (daughters) that are in their 20's. I will admit that I am glad that I have them, but I would never want to be told that I was selfish for not having any.

I think that you hit the nail squarely on the head!

I *heart* you.

I didn't want kids. The husband didn't want kids. We considered the possibility but weren't ready. He died. I'm thankful I didn't have a 2-year-old to care for at the time.

When I was little I thought it was strange my favourite aunt didn't have children. My mom said "Well, if she had children of her own, would she have the energy to be such fun company for you?" I think the world needs those nice aunties too. ;)

I always wanted children (and have two of my own now), but I must say I understand the arguments of those who say having children is selfish much better than the ones of those who say not having any is...

Wow. I could've written this entry. I don't want kids, much to my mother's chagrin. But she had 5 kids (of which I'm the oldest) and I'm pretty sure one of the others will give her grandkids.

I spent my 'childhood' (from age 7 on) caring for my brothers. I knew when I was really young that I didn't want to be a "mommy". But I loved my brothers and helped take care of them (my oldest brother is 7 years younger than I, my youngest is 16 years younger).

When I met my (now) husband, I told him I had no desire to have kids, and he was somewhat relieved. He also came from a family of 5, and didn't want kids.

We have 2 cats and a dog instead, and hobbies, and a lifestyle we couldn't have if we had to worry about day care, and all of that.

I agree with your 'kings and queens' observation; today's kids are in for a world of hurt when they grow up and not everyone gets a trophy, not everyone becomes a CEO, and not everyone is the unique and beautiful flower that their parents always said they were.

Some of those kids will flip burgers or wait tables. Some of them will have to actually work for a living, and it's not going to be an easy transition from mommy and daddy's house to the big bad world.

I don't think it's selfish to not procreate. I know for a fact that I've got genes I don't want to pass on. Between the two of us, we'd have an autistic child, probably more severe than my brother, who's 'functional', but on several drugs to help him be that way... and that was a long row to hoe. Temper tantrums, shrieking, night terrors, etc. He was difficult from the get-go, and I was the one who stayed up with him nights, because my parents both worked. It was ~3 years before a diagnosis, and ~15 to get the right therapy and meds. I couldn't go through with that. I know I couldn't. I don't have the patience.

I'm not saying my mother was a saint. I know she was selfish, and foolish to have so many of us -- and 5, count 'em, 5 C-sections -- but I love my brothers, and she had the procreative drive. She, from a young age, wanted lots and lots of children. I... don't.

I don't think there's anything wrong with having or not having children, but the concept that it's selfish to not procreate is generally only looked at from the procreator's stance.

I heard the same show and thought it was strange. I didn't think I wanted kids but then one day surprise. I have found true love but I had lots of friends without children. I love your knitting and spirit.

Maybe Britney Spears should have your attitude (slightly flippant, but you get the point I'm sure)?

What a bizarre topic for the BBC to cover. Aren't there more important problems to solve, like why we can't stop killing one another?

Anyway, your responses are on the money, and I don't have much to add there. I can sort of understand what might prompt a person to *wonder* why others don't have children--Jacob has been a powerful force for good in my own life--but ultimately taking a position like "remaining childless is selfish" shows a profound lack of empathy for others. And that's exactly the sort of example that I *don't* want set for my own children.

When I was growing up I always thought I'd have children, lots of them. But for various reasons that didn't happen. And it has never bothered me at all. And when I turned thirty I realised that I didn't want children after all. I was really quite happy with where my life was.

It annoys me when people have to validate their decision (ie to have a child) by insulting others (and I am insulted by being called selfish). Surely these are just decisions we make in our lives that suit us, and they aren't right or wrong - they just are....

Wow, I could have wrote that post myself (although not nearly as well). I have also been called selfish when I told someone that my choice to not have children was because I was "enjoying my life with my husband as it was."

AfricanKelli recently wrote a post on the amount of waste caused by diapers and recommended cloth diapers. I left a comment recommending just skipping the child process all together, then I held my breath. Surprisingly, there were no "spurned-woman" responses. The same in your comments... it's seems that women are coming to understand and support each others decisions (amen!) but maybe that is the just the readers of your blogs. Anyhow, I am personally grateful for their support.

The only two things that I pondered before I made my decision was 1)I love the idea of being pregnant and had dreams of living a whole foods life and natural birth (but the rest of the child rearing wasn't nearly so appealing to me) and 2) I won't have any children to care for me when I am old - when I say "care for me" I mean, visit me. I know how selfish this is but I have to admit that it is scary. My husband is 13 years older than me and I'm sure I will be on my own.

None the less, I am childless and happy with my decisions.

That sounds like a really ridiculous segment. Last week I was listening to a segment on KPCC about women who work full time and how that affects their kids. I think people like to stick their noses into other people's lives when it's none of their business. So you really can't win.

KUDOS! All of your responses to the questions, as well as your own personal reasons for not having children, are very rational and well presented. I have four children myself and would gladly do it all again, but I believe that it is up to each individual to decide if having a child(ren) is the right thing for them. That being said, I just have to tell you that my best friend found out last fall, after 18 years of marriage, that she was pregnant. She delivered a beautiful baby girl 2 weeks ago and has fallen completely madly in love! Having a child WILL change your life, but only you can decide if you want your life changed. 'Nuff said.

In response to why the BBC even chatted about such a topic is evident by the reaction given here! It is a FUN (?) topic that most can have an opinion on. I am 42, no kids by choice, living in a small neighborhood overrun by small children. I am very happy with my decision and when others tell me 'it's not too late to change my mind', I laugh. Not for me.

I only found one entry that also reflected on my take on the selfish argument: those who insist that THEIR genes are better to give to the world rather than adopt any of the thousands of unwanted children everywhere - THAT is what I think is selfish. If you want children, why are your genes, your procreation better than the child on the other side of the tracks that is waiting for a home? But please don't think I mean for anyone who wants children that they have to adopt. IT's just my argument against the selfish comment. It really is fascinating to see your reflection in a new baby (my niece looks just like me and it is cool.)

And to conclude, read EAT,PRAY,LOVE for a great book on one woman's rx to the baby Q. by Elizabeth Gilbert.

Thank you. Fascinating, really.

given my age, i'm probably going to be childless and i'm a little sad about that. but my reasons for wanting to have a child are the selfish ones...sad that after me there won't be any more of us (i have a brother but he's currently single and while it's possible that he'll father a child, it's unlikely right now); i sometimes feel empty because i will never have the experience of being a parent (i have nieces and nephews through marriage, but that's just not the same), and finally, who will take care of me when i'm old. my reasons for not having children are much less selfish: i'm too old, is it fair to a child to have potentially elderly parents at a young age? i'm a bit crazy as is my family and i'm much more like my mother than i care to admit -- i don't want to end up fucking up a kid like i was fucked up. and if we did have a child, we couldn't afford to have one parent stay home and raise it. i do feel guilt about not giving my parents a grandchild, but it is what it is.

by the way, 10 years ago i didn't think about having kids. my yearning for kids has a lot to do with my getting older.

so i guess in summary, the woman on the BBC is full of shit.

Marnie, your blog today almost exactly refects my feelings on the subject too. So close it's scary.

I've been declared 'selfish' for not having children by people with kids and I don't get it either. The only argument that I've given a moment's thought to is that by having children you become less selfish as you will have to give your time to someone else, always. i.e. a parent is a person who is inherently less selfish than a non-parent but it's not the choice that is the selfish/selfless act. I counter that by saying I have elderly parents, a husband, friends, pets that mean I constantly give my time too. And I could point to one parent (not mine) who is the most selfish person I know.

I'm guessing a childless-by-choice woman is some how threating to others. Whatever.

i didn't have time to read all the comments, but it looks like you've got a 95% concensus in your favor, lol.

being the mother of 4, i can say this. if you don't like kids, DON'T HAVE CHILDREN. i had a friend who wasn't particularly fond of children, and ended up having 2 (both were whoops, the older one has absolutely no contact with his father). while she did her best, i could always tell when it was or was not a good idea to bring my own (she would never tell me not to, but part of being her friend was knowing when). she always told me, however, that i was most definitely mommy material. i mother EVERYBODY. in fact, my daughter's roommate calls me mom, because i mother her more than her own mother does!

anyway, rambling away, the point is that it's your body, and your life. to hell with those who have contrary opinions (this is not logan's run, after all! (oh dear, i think i just dated myself))

I have had many biology courses (including philosophy of biology which discusses altruism and the like) and this is how reproduction tends to be viewed: 1) it is a selfish act because it puts more copies of your genes into the world. 2) it is instinctive and if you don't have that instinct, there is probably a reason that you should not reproduce. (and by you, i mean any organism that reproduces through sexual means, not just Marnie)
So you can probably tell how I feel on the subject. Also, talk radio annoys me. If I wanted to hear people argue about randomly chosen issues, I'd sit in on a philosophy class.

i've had this argument a million times with my mother (whom i love dearly) about my feelings about children. i'm an only child, and my mother is divorced, and i think some of her loneliness is where a lot of the pressure comes from. she uses the "someone to take care of you when you're old," "i want to be a grandmother," "you're just being selfish to want a career" line all of the time.

then again, when i told the rest of the women that i got into a phd program, the inevitable response included, "when does marriage and children fit into this picture?," so i suppose her response is not shocking. i wonder how old the woman speaking was, as it seems, at least from some of my experiences, that generational expectations and family background can play a factor. we are working toward a time (finally) when a woman choosing something other than a traditional role is not as scourned, but some still cling to those old gender roles like a blanky.

sometimes i think i might want them, sometimes not, but i do resent people believing they have a say. it's incredibly infuriating, and it was nice to read a post and hear so many people sharing the same feelings.

All I can say is amen sister.

this is just absurd.

i had someone recently tell me that they'd never heard of someone who freely chose not to have a child and implied that i must have a serious problem for feeling that way.

i have no problem with those who choose to have kids, but the lifestyle just isn't for me.

While I've always thought that you HAD to be selfish to have a child, I think some of the arguments mentioned in the comments are just as belittling to those people who want/have children as those made in the program you heard.

Everyone's a critic.

WELL SAID--
For what ever reason I always knew I didn't want to have children and I have never been sorry..If others want to have children-let them, but please don't push your propaganda on me.. I thought we were all entitled to do what ever the hell we want when it comes to this, but it's like everyting--the majority never likes someone who is not like them (just like organized religion) another taboo subject...Four points:
1-Most children DO NOT take care of their elderly parents.
2- What kind of parents have children and have nannies raise them while they work to pay for them?
3-The divorce rate being what it is-how many children live in one parent homes.
4-What about the Population explosion never mind the environment. The diapers alone in out land fills is out of control,,,

I wanted a child, definitely. I went through fertility treatment in order to have a child, nearly died in the process of having her, and was warned off trying to have another, lest I, duh, die trying. And the reality of one child with physical problems was overwhelming. So I cut off the baby factory. My then-husband accused me of tying the tubes to spite him. Needless to say, we divorced.

All of this was my choice, my life, my everything. I love my daughter, and yet there are days when I know that I might have had an easier life without her. Nothing in this mother/daughter equation is simple or straightforward except the fact that we love each other immensely. The rest is a day to day challenge.

My current husband did not want children, for the most part, though he has had little twinges of regret that I can no longer have one with him. And he's had little twinges of regret that he's got one already, because we came as a package deal. But he's risen to the challenge, though he did not originally choose to procreate. It ain't for everyone, this parenting gig. He's a remarkable human being for taking it on, though he had always thought he didn't want to and couldn't do it.

All of that said, anyone who tells you that you ought to have a child should shut the f*ck up and mind their own business. Like others, I can hardly believe that there's a show devoting time to telling people how, when, where, and why they should procreate. I really fail to see how anyone can think it's okay to tell another person what they should do in this matter.

What an interesting topic - I couldn't have kids, and I never truly felt the big urge to have children. For many years I thought something was, perhaps, very wrong with me to not want having children. I have learned over the years that there is nothing wrong with my decision to not have children (which turned out to be a good thing given I found out at age 38 that I couldn't have had any ANYWAY!) I firmly believe that things happen for a reason. And I have many good, dear friends who didn't have children.

I think it's silly to judge people like this. Celebrate the fact you have enough self-awareness and smarts to follow your heart! Great topic.

It's wonderful to read this part of the argument. I am single and 30, and have felt the pressure/comments from friends, family and strangers as to why I'm not married or interested in having children because of my age. I am undecided about children at this point, and although I work with children as a teacher, it is job where it does at times, put me off from being a mother. I feel like my life is very full and don't feel that I am ready for motherhood. It would be great if other people respected this decision because those not choosing to have kids have decided on an alternative path, one that is equally valid.

I forget whether or not you're married or not...but if you're single, do you get a lot of questions as to why you and Leo aren't married yet? This is def one I've had to learn to deal/fend off esp since I've been w/ my boyfriend for 2 years now.

I have three puppies babies. I don't really want at the moment (but am not against them in the future) but I totally agree that kids today need to be put in their place. And they need to be outside and exercising and reading... ok, well I won't keep going.

I totally understand though.

Funny the sort of posts that bring one out of lurkdom. I feel the same way. I've known for a long time that children are not in my future. I was at dinner with a group of ten or so overachieving undergraduates at a highly rated school, and I was the only one among them not interested in having children. They were gobsmacked. But kids are just not part of my future.

So I get this post. I'm with you.

I think at its very core, discussions about parenting are all about second-guessing women and not trusting them to make their own decisions. I'm sure there aren't nearly as many men who struggle with societal pressure to have kids. But if you DO go ahead and have kids, every other day you're going to hear about some new way in which you're being a bad mother or aren't doing enough to help your child succeed in life (at least I think that's the reasoning about supposed "mommy wars"). Again, not the same pressures for men. You're damned if you do and damned if you don't. I think society just wants to keep women as insecure as possible so they don't have the energy or sass to stand up for themselves. Ok, that's more like 5 cents, I'm done now :)

Wow. Possibly the most absurd thing I've ever heard.
I love kids, am guardian to two, and am having my own.
But there's no way on this earth I'd ever call someone selfish for *not* doing it.
I just wish we (as women and as people) could get past the 'mommy wars.'

I totally agree with all of you that said that radio show was completely pointless! Couldn't they come up with something useful to argue about? That's one reason I try really hard to not listen to talk radio, but I digress.

I have 3 kids, all boys, and we're discussing #4. I love them all dearly, but I have wanted to be a mom since I was a little kid. That was my career goal. I know there are those out there who would criticize me for that, but that's just their opinion. My husband and I waited a few years to have kids, so that we'd be in a financial position to have me stay at home with them. That's what we wanted. On the other hand, our best friends just had their second, and they say often that they don't raise their kids, all the credit goes to the day-care. They tell us that they just do this parenting thing part time. Know what? That's their thing! We all are different, and who exactly is anyone to say that my way is right, and therefore, if you don't agree then by default your way is wrong? Different things work for different people.

My gosh, people, isn't it the individual's decision whether or not to procreate? Sure kids are great, and on some level, I think it'd be great if everyone could experience the joys I did while being pregnant and during labor and giving birth and nursing and all of that. But, I also love brussell sprouts. And I can't see forcing them on someone. Brussell sprouts or kids.

I've heard arguments that having children is actually one of the most selfish things people can do. The idea similar to your arguments that no one can decide to have a child while being truly altruistic.

We always have children for our own desires. I'm due in 3 months. I never wanted children before. About 5 years into our marriage, I thought, "hey, I would like to be parents with this guy." And I must say, it did add an additional sense of purpose to my life, even though it didn't feel empty or drifting before. Of course, some people will never feel that way about the subject. But no matter what happy fuzy feelings I attach to it, it's still self-serving to decide to have kids :p

I have two kids and I'm glad I am a parent but I totally admire women who know what they want from their lives and if it's not kids that's just fine!

What a refreshing and thoughtful post! At every point, I was nodding, recognizing the same thoughts that have gone into my own decision-making. It's always great to hear other people repeating and legitimizing what you yourself think : )

But seriously, thank you for this thought-provoking response to that radio show.

Hear hear!

I too am someone who has chosen not to have kids, and don't feel it's a selfish decision, but rather a responsible one. I'd list my reasons, but you seem to have covered them nicely.

I have only once been called selfish in this decision, and it was by a male co-worker. And as I see it, he was wrong by default, as he had a child for which he wasn't paying child support.

I have encountered a few people who don't understand that I don't feel the "need" to have kids, but my response to that is, "that's ok, you don't have to understand it."

I cannot see how a family uses less resources when you consider diapers... for a start. I will never use enough paper towels/plastic bags or do enough laundry to equal what is used in diapering one child (depending on method of diapering said child).

I agree with you. I always knew that I had to be the last of my line because of how tainted my gene pool is. Although, I do get a kick out of how many boxes I get to check on medical forms.

I do not want a baby and do not plan on having any. Trying to be a good person and a responsible cat owner is more than enough, thanks. I don't really see the point in people arguing this. Babies are optional. Having them or not having them is no one else's concern.

I have two kids, but I completely agree with you on this. So many people seem to think that their way is the only right way. Especially when it comes to kids.

It reminds me of something my mother always told my brothers and I when we were kids, "You just worry about what you're doing and stop worrying about they're doing".

My answer for "You will have no one to care for you when you are old " is that I'm using all that orthodontist/dance school/soccer uniform/ crashed car/college/bail money on a kick-ass retirement home! :)

Honestly, all of those excuses are lame and it really is a non-issue, except for this woman with the wadded panties. Maybe she needs to make herself feel better about the decisions she's made. That's usually the case with those who consider you a bad person because you don't make the same choices they do.

Jerks.

I agree 100%. I was raised in a family of 5 (including my parents) and I can absolutely assure you that 5 people, especially when 3 of them are kids, use up way more energy than one adult couple would. Theres more electricity use (dad was always yelling at us to turn the lights/tv/radio/fan off when we leave the room), more waste, higher food consumption, exct. There's a much bigger ecological foot print. Along the same lines, humans overpopulate the Earth as it is, and its leaving a dammaging effect on the ecosystem. I really feel that if our population is at stake, its beacause there are too many of us, not too few.

At this point in my life I am not interested in having children, I have never really been interested in having or wanting children, but my husband really wants kids.

I feel that if I had a child before I wanted one, that I would not treat the child like I should no matter how much I love them. I want my children to be healthy and balanced.

My husband and I tend to participate in both the conservative and liberal circles. I appreciate that our liberal friends don't constantly ask about when we hope to have children, while our more conservative friends were warned off the subject early on. My dear friends never ask because they have known my feelings since high school.

Thankfully we have no outside pressures to have children. My parents aren't interested (if I had not been born, they probably would have not had children. so they understand.) His parents have grandchildren. His mom told us that we would miss an important factor of life, because of this we constantly told her that we got dogs so that she could hear the pitter patter of little feet. She came to love our dogs and loving them as her grandchildren up until her death. I brought our newest addition to her bedside so that she might be able to remember her.

We are happy with our fur children. They are a lot of work, but a great enjoyment. We don't have as much freedom as we had when we did not have them, but that doesn't bother us much. It is normally only a problem, when we start contemplating hiking one of the national parks where dogs are not allowed.

How interesting. I had never heard that argument before. I always assumed that having children when I didn't have the means and support to raise them in the best, most supportive environment was the selfish act.

My Mom has tried to tell me that people who have kids are easier going, blah blah blah until I pointed out to her that perhaps the people who are uptight are not uptight because they didn't have kids but that they didn't have kids because they are uptight.

In the meantime, I'm the greatest Aunt on the planet. ;-)

OK - I have 2 kids - unlike you, from the age of 16 I knew that I desperately wanted to have them at some point. However I have never been able to understand how not having children could be viewed as selfish. Having children was quite definitely a selfish choice on my part.

And addressing the first argument for having children - nope - I'd definitely say that having kids has not made me a better person. It has made me far more aware of some of my failings, and yes, I've had to grow up some. Maybe the self-awareness is a good thing, but I suspect that some of the negative characteristics are only really being displayed because I have children.

But I do love them both tremendously, and would act like a cornered alley cat if anyone tried to take them away from me.

TBH it seems that this is just one of those arguments that always seems to happen around parenting issues. It's kind of the first one. Once a baby has been conceived a whole new load arise - home-birth or hospital (complete with ranking based on which method of pain relief is used) breast-fed or bottle-fed, cloth diapers or disposables, etc etc. (And believe me, this battles are generally not at all pretty.)

Women could be such great support for each other on this sort of issue - all it takes is a little respect for people who have chosen a different path, but unfortunately on so many issues it doesn't work out that way.

can't believe that they actually had a radio segment based on the above lame (imho) reasoning. If you don't want children you shouldn't have them. End of story. Yes, if a person who is against the idea did have a child it might change his/her mind, or they might resent the child, mistreat the child, ignore the child etc. There are far too many unwanted children as it is, why add one more?

And for the record, I've always wanted children and am about to have my first.

I don't think it's at all selfish to choose not to have children. In fact if all of the people who deep down knew that they didn't want kids were careful not to have any I think fewer children would be mistreated. I happen to have four children and the shock that I meet when I say that is surprising. I respect a persons right to choose not have kids but I think people think its okay to make smart comments about me having four. If we could all learn to respect each others decisions regardless of what we would do differently we would be a lot better off.

We have three children, and are in the middle of adopting our fourth, but I COMPLETELY agree with you! Parenting (the right way, at least) takes a lot of work. I'm appreciative of all the positive character traits that being a Mommy has brought out in me, but I would never, ever tell anyone they should have children. In fact, the ones who are unsure/ don't want kids/ want kids for the wrong reasons...should really wait. Those precious children need parents committed to their upbringing. *Our society* needs parents committed to their upbringing.

I think you're protesting too much. Why? It's your life.

I love children, and I don't plan on having any of my own. I enjoy being the eccentric spinster aunt!

If selfish, bad people refrained from having children, in theory we'd have evolved into a better society without a need to guilt people into childbearing with short-sighted, speculative arguments.

It's not whether you bear the children, it's what you do with them that counts.

I want kids. But I'm going to go ahead and declare that woman and her argument both completely absurd.

You've stated pretty much all the same reasons I've had through my life for not wanting kids. One of the big ones is the physical/mental health issue. My family is shot through with cancer, depression and just plain old shyness. I wouldn't want to bring up a child who might be as miserable as I have been at various times of my life. (I'm pretty happy right now, thank Og.)

The one thing I can say that I feel these days is this: as you get older, it feels a bit lonely and sterile to know that your line ends with you. I think of some future descendant of some branch of the family looking for old relatives and seeing this branch of the tree just... taper off and end. Of me, my brother, and my sister, only one of us has reproduced, and he (my bro) only produced one.

But even knowing this, I wouldn't have changed my mind about kids. I had the opportunity once, and turned it down without regrets.

Dumb people can have smart children, so it's okay if smart people decide not to have kids. We should all just make sure to support a good system of education, and we won't have to worry about dumb people outbreeding smart ones...

Currently I only have a fur-child. I haven't ruled out having kids but I have a LOT of friends who don't want kids. I don't have a burning need for a child - I think my biological clock is either broken or on mute because I hear no ticking.

However, one of my friends makes this arguement for having a child. We smart folks need to have kids to balance out all the dumb people breeding like rabbits. That kind of thinking seems elitist to me, but after a day at a local fair I kind of get her point. I know my kids won't be guaranteed smart just because I am but it does seem like maybe the smart folks are all the ones choosing to forgo childbearing.

Sometimes I wonder what that means for our world....